Pizza Dough Bulk and Ball Fermentation: A Complete Guide
If you’re passionate about bread or pizza making, you’ve likely encountered terms like “bulk fermentation”, “time in balls”, or “proofing period”. This article explores the concepts of bulk fermentation and ball fermentation, their effects on the dough, the significance of each step, and aims to answer the common question: what is the optimal duration for bulk fermentation and ball fermentation (‘proofing’), and why does it matter?
Introduction: Understanding Bulk and Ball Fermentation
Before discussing the differences between bulk fermentation and ball fermentation, let’s first clarify what these terms mean.
When discussing bulk fermentation, we are referring to the stage in which the dough ferments as a single mass before it is divided into individual dough balls (in the case of pizza) or shaped into its final form (in the case of bread). To put it simply, after kneading the dough, we let it ferment as a single mass (known as the ‘bulk’ stage). Later in the fermentation process, we divide it into individual balls or shape it into its final form (referred to as the ball fermentation or “proofing period“).
If we have only made a single dough ball, there is obviously no need to divide it into smaller dough balls (since there is only one). So, there is essentially no “bulk” fermentation period. However, the distinction between “bulk” fermentation and the time in balls, as well as their respective effects on the dough (as we will explore later), still exists.
It is important to note that in this context, there is no difference between reballing dough that has already been shaped into balls (i.e. additional reballing of an already formed individual dough ball) and the initial dividing and balling of dough that has undergone bulk fermentation.
In both cases, the impact on the gluten (the “tightening” effect) will be the same. In other words, whether we divide a large mass of dough into balls or reball an existing ball (or multiple balls), the effect on the dough, in terms of time spent in bulk or balls, will be the same.
As we will soon discover, bulk or ball fermentation (or more precisely, the duration of time the dough spends in bulk or balls) can significantly influence the dough’s behavior, the final product, and the rate of fermentation.
To fully understand the concepts discussed in the rest of this article, it is highly recommended to read the article on Elasticity and Extensibility in Dough, which provides essential background on dough elasticity and extensibility.
Bulk Fermentation and Fermentation Rate
First, it is important to understand what happens to the dough during bulk fermentation in terms of yeast and enzymatic activity, as this affects the rate of fermentation.
What occurs in the dough during bulk fermentation:
- The yeast activity in the dough produces carbon dioxide (CO2) or “gas bubbles” that make the dough less dense and more airy. These gas bubbles act as a physical “insulation layer” inside the dough, slowing down the transfer of heat or cold between the environment and the dough. Less compressed dough (more airy) means it is better insulated from the environment.
- The metabolic activity of the yeast itself generates heat (about 0.5°C per hour). Depending on the degree of insulation from the environment, this heat may remain inside the dough and further affect its internal temperature.
- The larger the mass of dough, the longer it will take for the external temperature to have an effect on it, and the effect will occur more slowly. For example, compare the melting time of a small ice cube to that of a shoebox-sized block of ice.
The combination of all the factors mentioned above means that when the dough is bulk fermented, it is less affected by external temperature. This enables it to maintain its internal temperature better.
Additionally, the larger the mass of the dough, the more effectively it is insulated from the surrounding environment. As we have previously discussed, the temperature of the dough directly affects its fermentation rate. Therefore, in theory, bulk fermentation can significantly impact the fermentation rate.
The above process is a kind of “cycle” – as the dough ferments (becoming more airy and creating a larger insulation layer), it is less affected by the ambient temperature. At the same time, the yeast’s activity generates more heat in the dough (which is retained due to the insulation layer).
This heat, in turn, increases yeast activity and accelerates fermentation (more heat equals higher yeast activity). As a result, the insulation layer continues to grow, thus perpetuating the cycle.
“True” Bulk Fermentation: Dough Masses Exceeding 1.5kg/3lb
A “true” bulk fermentation occurs in doughs that weigh approximately 1.5kg/3lb or more. This is because larger doughs are more efficient at maintaining a constant internal temperature due to their mass.
For smaller doughs weighing less than this, the fermentation process (in terms of temperature maintenance) is similar to that of a smaller mass dough, whether it’s a 200 gram dough ball or a 1kg bulk of dough. While their cooling/warming time may differ, none of them can maintain a constant internal temperature.
When fermenting a large mass of dough, especially one that exceeds 1.5kg, the final dough temperature (FDT) plays a crucial role. This is because the core of such dough is effectively insulated from the environment, meaning that the actual fermentation temperature during bulk fermentation will be similar to the temperature of the dough at the end of kneading (FDT) for most of the bulk fermentation period.
For example, if we bulk ferment a 3kg dough with a final dough temperature of 24C/75F, the dough will ferment at (or close to) 24C even if the room temperature is 18C/64F. The impact of bulk fermentation becomes even more significant when refrigeration is involved, as we will explore in the next section.
Bulk Fermentation in the Fridge
An important aspect to consider when discussing bulk/ball fermentation is the impact of bulk fermenting the dough in the fridge.
As mentioned earlier, the larger the mass of dough, the longer it takes to cool down. This means that when the dough is bulk fermented in the fridge as a large mass, it will take much longer for its core to reach the actual temperature of the fridge compared to individual, smaller dough balls.
Depending on the size/weight of the dough, it can take more than 12 hours for its core to reach the fridge temperature. During this time, the dough will continue to ferment at a higher temperature, resulting in a faster fermentation process.
Furthermore, the longer we allow the dough mass to ferment at room temperature before placing it in the fridge, the less dense it will become (thanks to yeast activity). This increased yeast activity creates “insulation” within the dough, causing it to take even longer to cool down. Consequently, the fermentation process occurs at a higher temperature and proceeds more rapidly.
If you want to observe and experience the effects of bulk fermentation firsthand, try conducting a simple experiment. Start by preparing a relatively large amount of dough. Allow it to ferment at room temperature for an hour or two, and then transfer it to the fridge in bulk. Take temperature measurements of the dough every few hours. Depending on factors such as the size of the dough and the duration and temperature of the room fermentation, you will notice that it can take a significant amount of time for the core of the dough to cool down and reach the temperature of the fridge.
This aspect of fermenting as a bulk mass in the fridge is significant and should be considered when using a hybrid fermentation method that combines cold fermentation with room temperature fermentation.
Effects of Bulk and Ball Fermentation on Dough Behavior (Elasticity and Extensibility)
This is the part that interests us the most in the context of pizza dough, and it is much simpler than it seems.
When we are ready to bake the dough, it is important that it has the right level of elasticity and strength, as well as the right level of extensibility. In simpler terms, our goal is to achieve a balance between extensibility and elasticity. The duration of dough fermentation in balls directly affects its behavior at the end of fermentation and before baking.
In general:
- The longer the dough is fermented in ball form, the more extensible and less elastic the gluten will become. This means that the dough will stretch more easily and feel more fluid.
- Conversely, the shorter the fermentation time in ball form, the more elastic and ‘resistant’ the dough will be.
There is a common misconception that claims that when dough goes through bulk fermentation, it “gains strength”. However, this notion is not entirely accurate. The reality is that dough that spends less time in balls will be more elastic at the end of fermentation, compared to dough that is bulk fermented for a longer period (and spends less time in balls), which will be more extensible. This is because the longer the dough is fermented as individual balls, the more time it has to “relax” and become more extensible.
Factors Influencing Ball Fermentation Time and Dough Extensibility
We have observed that fermenting the dough in balls for a longer duration increases its extensibility. However, there are other factors, besides the fermentation time in balls, that can affect the dough’s extensibility. These factors can also influence the required fermentation time in ball form.
These factors include:
- The type of flour used
- The dough hydration
- The initial kneading
- The fermentation method (cold/room temperature fermentation)
When it comes to flour, weaker flours such as Italian flours are less “resistant” to extended fermentation in balls due to their lower protein (gluten) content and natural extensibility. As a result, they quickly lose their shape and flatten. On the other hand, stronger flours can withstand longer ball fermentation, maintaining their shape better.
In general, flours with higher protein content (i.e., more elasticity) require more fermentation time in balls to achieve the right balance of dough elasticity and extensibility.
The dough’s extensibility is also influenced by its hydration level. Doughs with higher hydration are typically more extensible, so they require less time in balls to ‘compensate’ for their increased extensibility.
The degree of kneading also affects the fermentation time in bulk or balls. The more gluten development during the initial kneading (i.e., the more intense the kneading), the more elastic the dough becomes and the longer it retains its elasticity and shape. However, it’s worth noting that intensive kneading is generally not recommended when making pizza dough. A detailed post on this topic will be published in the future.
Finally, the fermentation method also affects the fermentation time of the dough in balls. Generally, lower temperatures result in tighter, more elastic gluten. This means that fermenting the dough in the fridge allows for a longer ball fermentation time. On the other hand, fermenting at room temperature causes the dough to relax faster and lose its elasticity more quickly, usually requiring less time in balls.
Dough Balling: How Tight Is Right?
In general, the more we “tighten” the dough while forming it into a ball, the more elastic it will be and the better it will maintain its shape during fermentation. The reasoning behind this is simple: when we tighten the dough, the gluten also tightens and becomes more elastic. It then takes longer for the gluten to relax and become more extensible, losing its shape.
What exactly does “tightening” the dough mean? To put it simply, the more we work with the dough, stretching it and creating “layers”, the tighter and more elastic it becomes. If you repeatedly reball the same dough, you will notice that it becomes increasingly resistant and more difficult to stretch and fold.
Note that this section is about tightening the dough, rather than “sealing” it! “Sealing” the bottom of the dough ball is meaningless and does not impact the dough’s elasticity or its ability to maintain its shape.
However, it’s important to note that an overly tight dough ball is not necessarily desirable. While a tighter and more elastic dough ball will maintain its shape better, it will also take longer to become sufficiently extensible.
This is an important consideration, as it’s common to see bakers balling the dough too tightly, resulting in dough that is not extensible enough when it comes time to bake. As mentioned earlier, this leads to a resistant dough that is challenging to shape into a pizza base, with implications for the final product.
In most cases, simply folding the dough from the outside inward, either in the air with your fingers or on the work surface, and then lightly rolling it on the work surface with the palm of your hand to achieve a general ball shape is sufficient. There’s no need to do more than that.
When making bread, it is typically desirable to create a very tight dough when shaping it into its final form. This is because a dough that is elastic and can retain its shape is desired for baking bread, and achieving a tight final shaping allows us to achieve this.
Reballing Existing Dough Balls
If you ferment the dough in balls for the entire fermentation duration (e.g. when using the Lehmann method for cold fermentation), you can make use of reballing the dough in the same way as dividing the fermentation time between bulk and balls.
The process is simple: instead of dividing the dough mass (bulk) into individual balls, you can reball the existing dough balls. This enables you to “adjust” the extensibility and elasticity of the dough in the same way as bulk or ball fermentation does.
Therefore, everything mentioned in the previous sections about fermentation time in balls also applies to reballing existing dough balls. In practice, there is no difference between reballing an existing dough ball and dividing and balling a bulk-fermented dough; Reballing existing dough balls is essentially the same as dividing and balling the dough “for the first time”, in terms of time in balls (reballing the dough “resets” the time in balls).
However, reballing should be used with caution. If there isn’t enough time for the gluten to relax and become more extensible after reballing, it may result in an overly elastic and resistant dough. This will make it very difficult to work with and stretch into a pizza base, with consequences for the final product.
Visual: Elasticity and Extensibility Changes in Dough Balls
The image below demonstrates how the dough loses its elasticity and shape over time and becomes more extensible. This dough has a hydration of 70% and was fermented for a total of 3 hours.
The dough ball on the right was reballed after one hour (one-third into fermentation), while the dough ball on the left was fermented in ball form for the entire fermentation period (meaning, I didn’t touch it at all after initially balling it). Notice that as time passes, both dough balls gradually lose their elasticity and become more extensible.
2: The dough ball on the right was reballed after one hour (one-third of the fermentation duration).
3: The dough balls after another hour (total of 2 hours have passed).
4: The dough balls at the end of fermentation (total of 3 hours, and two hours after reballing the right dough ball).
It is important to note that this is just an example to illustrate how the dough ball loses its elasticity and becomes more extensible and “loose” the longer it is fermented in a ball form. In this specific example, the fermentation duration was only 3 hours (at a high temperature of 29C/84F), so this process occurred quickly. In longer fermentations, this process will be slower.
Please keep in mind that the example above does not include a container or additional dough balls to “support” the sides of the balls, which is why they flattened and gained volume on the sides instead of upwards. Once again, this is solely for demonstration purposes.
Bulk and Ball Fermentation: Impact on the Final Product
Beyond the impact on the behavior of the dough when stretching it into a pizza base, the degree of extensibility and elasticity of the dough at the moment of baking also has a direct and significant impact on the final product.
If the dough is too elastic and lacks extensibility:
- It will resist too much during baking, making it difficult to stretch in the oven spring phase and gain volume. This will result in a denser crust with less volume, and a more closed structure with fewer and smaller “air bubbles”.
- It will also produce a tougher, chewier texture.
If the dough is too extensible and lacks elasticity:
- It will stretch too much during baking, causing the gluten to collapse due to a lack of elasticity/strength. This can be seen through large holes/”voids” or “spiderwebs” in the crumb (see picture below), which are indications of collapsed gluten that lacked elasticity.
- Alternatively, a dough that is too extensible will spread to the sides during baking, resulting in a flatter crust with less volume.
- It will produce a crumbly texture. It’s worth noting that there are types of pizzas, such as Chicago Deep Dish and Cracker Style Pizza, where this crumbly result is desirable. In these cases, weak flours are used, or methods to weaken the gluten and make it less elastic are employed.
Our goal when making pizza dough is to achieve a balance between extensibility and elasticity. In general:
- A more extensible dough will stretch more during baking, resulting in a more open crumb structure with larger air bubbles. Italian flours, for example, are naturally very extensible and produce pizzas with a distinctively open crumb structure.
- A more extensible dough will result in a softer crumb that is less tough and chewy.
- A more extensible dough will result in a crispier exterior crust.
- A more elastic dough will result in a more closed crumb structure with smaller and more uniform air bubbles.
- A more elastic dough will result in a crumb that is tougher and chewier, especially as the pizza cools down.
As you can see, by adjusting the fermentation time of the dough in bulk and balls, we can control the texture and characteristics of the pizza.
As previously mentioned, when making bread, it is preferable for the dough to be more elastic than extensible. This is because when baking bread, especially hearth breads which are baked without a pan directly on the baking surface, we want the dough to have enough elasticity to maintain its shape during fermentation and baking. This way, it can increase in volume upwards instead of spreading sideways.
Pizza Dough: What’s the Ideal Fermentation Time in Bulk and Balls?
This is likely the most commonly asked question when discussing bulk and ball fermentation: how much time does the dough need to spend in bulk or balls? The answer to this question, like many things related to dough and baking, is: it depends.
One of the main advantages of bulk fermentation is space-saving. When preparing a large amount of dough, storing it in bulk takes up much less space compared to using a large fermentation box or multiple separate containers. This advantage becomes particularly relevant when doing a long cold fermentation in the fridge, which can easily occupy an entire shelf for 24+ hours.
Beyond that, as we have already discussed, the goal of timing bulk and ball fermentation is to achieve a dough that behaves optimally when opened into a pizza base, with a balance between extensibility and elasticity (assuming that the dough is generally at an ideal fermentation and ripening point, and not under or over-fermented).
As mentioned earlier, too little time in balls will result in overly elastic and resistant dough, making it difficult to open into a pizza base. On the other hand, too much time in balls may lead to an overly stretchy and sticky dough that is hard to handle. More time in balls = more extensible dough.
But how much time is considered “too much” or “too little”? This is where the previous answer comes in – it depends. It depends on the flour, the dough formula, the fermentation method, and the kneading technique; Ultimately, it mainly depends on your personal preferences.
Therefore, my personal recommendation is to always begin with a 50/50 split between bulk and ball fermentation. See and feel how the dough behaves, and make adjustments from there (less or more time in balls).
What I mean by a “50/50 split” is to ferment the dough for half of the time in bulk and the other half in balls. Consequently:
30/70: 30% of the fermentation time in bulk and 70% in balls (or reballing after 30% of the total fermentation duration).
80/20: 80% of the fermentation time in bulk and 20% in balls (or reballing after 80% of the total fermentation duration).
And so on.
When it comes to Italian flours, it is generally recommended not to allow them to ferment in balls for the entire fermentation duration. Instead, it is best to ferment them at least halfway in balls (50/50). This is due to their relatively low protein content and the very extensible nature of their gluten, which causes them to flatten and lose their shape relatively quickly.
On the other hand, other flours, specifically bread and pizza flours (and especially American flours), are usually able to withstand an entire fermentation in balls.
In summary, the best approach is to experiment and find what works best for you, while taking into consideration logistical factors and your schedule, both of which are equally important.
How Should Pizza Dough Balls Look At the End of Fermentation?
Another frequently asked question: what should the dough balls look like after fermentation?
First and foremost, it’s important to understand that pizza dough doesn’t necessarily have to “puff up” or look like a donut when it has finished fermenting. Below is an example of dough balls (60% hydration) at the end of fermentation, placed in a container side by side:
There is no issue if the dough flattens a little – in fact, it is desirable as it will make it easier to shape into a pizza base. The more the dough “puffs” upwards and is less flat (meaning it is “taller” at the end of fermentation), the more dough will be left in the rim, potentially resulting in a thicker crust/rim (which is not always desirable).
And it makes sense – if the dough is completely flat, the rim cannot be made “higher” – the “height” of the rim is determined by the “height” of the dough when it is shaped (see note below).
When stretching the dough into a pizza base, we actually push the center of the dough towards the rim, rather than pushing “air” to it! By flattening the center of the dough ball with our fingers, we essentially flatten the dough and push it towards the rim. This is how the dough becomes “larger” – by flattening the center outwards. The dough in the center does not become part of the rim; Instead, it simply flattens out.
As a result, the rim may appear “higher” because it gets “tighter”, but it does not actually gain volume or become higher. The final height of the rim (before baking), will be more or less the same as the height of the original dough ball before we started stretching it into a pizza base.
Don’t believe it? Take a flat dough ball and try pushing the dough from the center towards the rim. You will quickly realize that it is impossible to make the rim become “higher” than the initial height of the dough ball.
Keep in mind that in a properly fermented dough, even if the rim appears “flat” (and even if it was pressed with your hand) – it will still expand and rise during baking. As long as a rolling pin is not used to forcefully push the air out of the dough (a technique often used for cracker-style pizzas) – the air will remain trapped inside the dough.
If you are fermenting individual dough balls in a container, you don’t need to worry too much about the shape of the dough. The sides of the container will provide support and allow the dough to rise upwards, as long as the container isn’t much larger than the dough.
If you are fermenting multiple dough balls in a fermentation box and want to prevent them from flattening too much, you can arrange them closely together. This way, the balls will support each other and rise vertically instead of spreading out sideways. However, it’s important to note that this may not work for dough that is overly extensible and loses its shape during fermentation. Achieving a balance between extensibility and elasticity is still crucial, but this method can help to some extent in preventing flat dough balls.
Concluding Remarks
In summary, the time that the dough spends in bulk or balls allows us to manipulate the extensibility and elasticity of the gluten. If the dough spends a shorter time in balls, it will be more elastic and maintain its shape better. On the other hand, a longer time in balls will result in a more extensible, stretchy, and fluid dough.
It is important to note that there is no right or wrong approach here. The time spent in bulk or in balls depends on various factors, including the hydration level of the dough, the strength of the flour, the fermentation method, and the degree of initial kneading. The goal is to find a balance that allows for a dough that is easy to work with and produces ideal baking results.
The specific division of time between bulk and balls is a matter of personal preference. If the dough is too resistant and stretches too much, it can be beneficial to increase the time in balls. Conversely, if the dough is too stretchy and extensible, reducing the time in balls can help. In addition to this, as always, it is most important to ensure that the fermentation process is done correctly and that the dough is not under or over-fermented.
As mentioned, it is best to experiment and find what works for you and your specific dough making process. You will quickly discover that it is simpler than it may seem.
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There is one thing I am confused about in this article and maybe someone can help me understand.
It’s stated that the bigger percentage of the ferment time spent in balls vs spending in bulk will increase the extensibility. However, it also states that cold fermenting will slow down the fermentation. So assuming one is doing a room temp bulk ferment and a cold ball ferment, wouldn’t that conclude that the bigger percentage of time spent in the cold ball ferment would result in less extensibility and not more?
Hi Sam,
If I understand your question correctly, you are asking whether a faster RT fermentation will result in a more extensible dough compared to hybrid fermentation (bulk RT fermentation + ball CF, which I generally don’t recommend), assuming the same % of balls/bulk fermentation for each dough?
It’s easier to look at it like this: for the same fermentation conditions, a longer time in balls will always result in a more extensible dough. If we have a theoretical “ideal point of fermentation”, in terms of elasticity/extensibility, it doesn’t matter if we reach it through RT fermentation or cold fermentation.
For example, if we have two doughs, one fermented at room temperature for a total of 10 hours, with 2 hours in bulk and 8 hours in balls (20/80), and the other cold fermented for 48 hours, maintaining the same bulk/ball ratio of 20/80. Both doughs reach peak fermentation at the end of fermentation, meaning they are neither under-fermented nor over-fermented. Theoretically, both doughs will exhibit similar extensibility at the end of fermentation because they undergo a similar “amount” of fermentation, regardless of whether it’s at a hot or cold temperature. So, while cold fermentation significantly slows down fermentation, the dough still undergoes the same processes, including the break down of gluten and the increase in extensibility, just at a slower pace.
If you take the cold-fermented dough from the above example and use it after only 20 hours instead of 48, then yes, in this case, the dough undergoes less fermentation, thus becoming less extensible.
I hope this answers your question, let me know if you need any further clarification 🙂
I said it on another thread and will say it again here….great content!
Here is a question for you.
I have evolved a weekly dough formulation that I think may be overly involved, but my weekly guests love the dough. Just thinking I could make my life simpler without losing benefits…..Cooked at high heat (800-900) in a neo style with final hydration 64%
My question is whether I am wasting my time on the biga phase with sourdough? Is there any impact or should I just go to straight SD without the biga phase?
Process:
Monday night, SD starter feed.
Tuesday morning, SD based (100%) 45% biga using all 00 flour, rested 2 hours at RT, then into fridge. Starter is 12% of final btw.
Wed morning, Final mix (remainder of chilled water slowly and salt near end) into spiral mixer for about 15 mins until smooth and 72 degrees.
Bulk proof at RT for 4 hours, then balled and into fridge 54 hours then out 3 hours before cook.
Thank you Chuck!
Regarding your process, I would skip the SD biga phase. Essentially, you are making a stiff SD starter, so if that’s your goal, you can simply make a stiff SD starter when you feed the starter (at 45% HR), and then add it directly to the dough without turning it into a ‘biga’ (so feed the starter on Monday at 45% HR and add it to the final dough the next day). You can find more information on the effects of liquid vs stiff SD starter in the article on preferments (everything there is also 100% applicable to sourdough): Preferment Explained: A Complete Guide to Understanding and Using Preferments.
Additionally, I would suggest:
– Adding the salt right from the beginning (there’s no need for delayed salt addition; I will soon publish an article on this topic).
– Reducing the mixing time (see the article on biochemical gluten development: No Knead Pizza Dough & Biochemical Gluten Development: The Key to Better Pizza).
– Dividing the dough into balls and transferring them directly to the fridge after kneading (check out the Lehmann cold fermentation method in this article: How to Cold Ferment Pizza Dough: Guide to Cold Fermentation (2 Methods)).
– Trying a full same-day RT fermentation (5-8 hours); You’d be surprised by the results!
If you have any further questions, feel free to ask 🙂
Excellent info! I am going to cut out the biga phase and cut the mixing time as I have a very long cold ferment. I am wondering about your salt from the start comment though as I understand it retards the yeast activity, or are you suggesting that in a multi-day ferment that it doesn’t matter?
Thanks Chuck!
Salt does slow down and regulate yeast activity, but it does it regardless of when it is added to the dough during mixing. The purpose of the delayed salt method is to develop gluten faster (salt slows down gluten development during mixing), but this is not essential when making long-fermented dough 🙂
ok, also looking at all cold ferment….I note your calculator does not have an SD perferment option….are you suggesting that in this case, with cold, you still recommend the calculator’s amount of yeast on top of such?
Just to make sure I understand correctly, are you asking if you should use the amount of yeast suggested by the calculator in addition to the SD starter?
Yes that was the question. I note in the footnotes you rule out the yeast in any preferment….but at 12% that seems like a lot to ignore?
I see,
Unfortunately, the calculator is designed specifically for baker’s yeast, not sourdough, so the suggested yeast amounts cannot be applied to sourdough starter. However, if you need to calculate the amount of sourdough starter needed for a specific fermentation duration and temperature, you can use Craig’s sourdough prediction model, which can be found here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html (it works great in my experience, just like his yeast prediction model, on which my calculator is based)
Maybe in the future I’ll incorporate sourdough into the calculator 🙂
Well this week’s batch was mixed to a much cooler final mix temp (70), did same amount of SD, no biga phase, double the amount of IDY and balled immediately and into fridge (no 4-5 hr wp). They are currently like pancakes! I will give them 2 hours warm up before cook and see what happens!
Hi Chuck,
You can reball them to restore their elasticity, but make sure not to do it too close to the baking time.
By the way, is there a reason you use both sourdough and baker’s yeast? If the dough balls become over-fermented (turned into pancakes), that might be the reason 🙂
I have always used a bit of IDY with the SD for a bit more lift. I then read your point about preferment yeast being ignored in the cold ferment calcs….and figured if it is cold from start to finish, and my SD kept cold is very low activity, that I would try your calculator’s amounts. Far as I can tell I have had very little activity so far from point of balling. (tuesday morning for an 80 hr plus cold proof to Friday night cook)
Ah I see, you meant pancakes as under-fermented, I though you meant they spread out too much due to over-fermentation or becoming overly extensible. In the worst-case scenario, let the dough balls ferment at room temperature before baking. Let me know how it goes 🙂
As a side note, when using baker’s yeast with sourdough, the yeast essentially “overpowers” the LAB in the sourdough. I discuss this here: https://www.pizzablab.com/learning-and-resources/fermentation/pizza-dough-fermentation-basics/#acids-acidity-and-lactic-acid-bacteria
Ha! no, gravity and lack of activity is all…I will be interested to see if they get puffy with some warmth. FYI this site does not notify if there is a response in a thread.
With enough time & warmth, they most certainly will 🙂
Yes I’m aware of the lack of notifications, unfortunately there’s not much I can do as it’s a WordPress built-in feature
And this is exactly what happened! My laboratory is the same group of 10 people that I cook pizza for every Friday.
The all cold fermented (80hr) at 66% hydration and 12% SD and your calculator’s worth of IDY was beautiful to handle and bake. With the prior 100 pies worth of pizza using Biga and warm and cold proof and long mix to smooth and 72 deg, the 330g balls required a fair amount of work to open enough, and on launch were always smaller than I wanted to to elastic nature. Also, the thin centers were a bit “fragile”. I think the fact that the dough sometimes got weak in spots was due to the over mixing and then over the edge on proof.
This batch was almost too extensible but launched exactly the shape they were on the peel! 15 inches stayed 15 inches which was something I really wanted to get to.
Despite the same amount of SD and the same proof time, the sour profile was down quite a bit. Texture had a bit more crunch, undercarriage a bit more firm and a softer bite. Preference for everyone was this texture but did miss the sourness of prior. Rim was also a little less puffed.
Overall a win: simpler process, fewer steps, easier to manage proofing time……but a goal would be this texture, bit more “puff” and a bit more sour tang.
That’s awesome, Chuck! I’m glad it worked out! Now it’s just a matter of tweaking and trial & error 🙂
OK, time to report back further. Generally liking the total cold 80hr process….but looking to improve further. I am mixing to a temp of 68 (refrigerated water) and it takes about 8 mins in the spiral on a low setting. The resulting dough is very extensible, perhaps too much so. The rim puffs reasonably but I would like a bigger rim. In that I can do with less extensibility, do you think mixing to 70 and a bit longer to develop gluten a bit more would result in more puff and a little less extensibility? As it stands I am at 8% starter (100%) and .13% idy. Or do I need more starter and or IDY?
Hi Chuck, glad to hear it’s working out!
Regarding your question – if you haven’t already, I suggest reading the article on extensibility and elasticity to get an idea of how to alter the balance between them. You can try, for example, less time in balls or incorporate folds after kneading, or slightly longer mixing time – there are lots of ways to enhance elasticity 🙂
Also, make sure the dough is not over-fermented, as this results in an overly extensible dough.
Will read it. Maybe I should drop the IDY completely?
If you’re using sourdough, then yes, it’s better to use sourdough only
Another round to report. I boosted SD starter back to 12% (total dough weight of 3.8kg) and took IDY down to .021%. Mixed a bit longer (11 min spiral low) to 70 deg. Balled immediately and all cold proof for 80 hours. Balls out of fridge 1.5-2.5 hours before oven. The balls were quite flattened but nicely extensible and the flavor was back to much more SD (interesting how the IDY impacted the SD flav as you pointed out) and about perfect. Thing is the rim is quite minimal even with careful shaping. People love the crust in general but I want more puff in the rim.
Do I try a re-ball at 50% of the proof time?
Mix a bit longer and warmer to increase elasticity?
Increase the SD ratio? Include more warm proof time?
So interesting!
Sounds like you’re on the right track!
The answer to all your questions is: YES 😂
It’s tough to give a precise answer without feeling or seeing the dough, but experimenting will help you figure it out. I’d start by reducing the time in balls to 50%, as you mentioned, and see how that affects the results. Just remember to change only one variable at a time so you can be sure what actually impacted the outcome. Keep experimenting!
So go bulk for 50% or go ball from the start and reball at 50%? Agree on the variables!!
In terms of the balance between elasticity and extensibility, there’s no practical difference between reballing and ‘fresh’ balling, so you can choose either 🙂 However, keep in mind that bulk fermentation can affect the fermentation rate (warmer dough).
I did read that in your article…..the no diff between reballing and fresh balling…..I feel like going longer bulk is changing two variables….fermentation rate as well as the balling….sooo will try a reball at 40 hours!
Sounds like a plan, let me know how it turns out!
Well….reballed at 40 hours after 10 min spiral to 70 and direct to ball and fridge.
It was a small amount less extensible and very nice to work with….decently stronger on the stone (not one hole) but maybe even less cornicione! I am very careful with my shaping and use a very traditional method of fingers only in center, leave at least 1 inch rim untouched etc.
Suggestions on where do I go next?
It’s hard to help without seeing a crumb picture of your pizza, and also a crumb picture of the result you’re aiming for 🙂
Yes would have made sense to do that. I have followed the process to simplify and remove the biga step but want the same kind of puff I was getting. With the most recent process the crumb is pleasant but much more close….
This is a cook shot but the rim does not grow any more than what is seen here https://photos.app.goo.gl/qKqEEbUJY27ZM5pd6
A representative crumb: https://photos.app.goo.gl/F2kFgh5Xivqt7Pn59
My prior style which is what I want: https://photos.app.goo.gl/z44Wg6ZrLwZAvUyY6 and https://photos.app.goo.gl/jQJsVt7fJ454iisL6
and representative crumb, just more open and neo-ish: https://photos.app.goo.gl/839gvjunLs2zWPwS6
Hmm, I see. The crumb in the second picture (square pie?) looks under-fermented, so if that’s a representative crumb, you might need a longer fermentation. On the other hand, the crumb in the last picture (with biga?) seems possibly over-fermented – large voids or “spider webs” in the crumb indicate a collapsed gluten structure, which isn’t ideal (don’t confuse one big void/hole with open crumb).
Boy you have a sharp eye to catch that as square….I was just using a picture of crumb I had that seemed like this week’s result (but it was in fact a detroit that hadn’t been proofed enough).
the mid cook shot, which did not rise much more, was this week’s 12% 100% starter which is nicely active and doubled at use, .5g idy added, mixed to 70 degs (11 mins) and all cold proof balled for 80 hours with reball at 40. Warmed 1.5 hrs before cook. Would that mean I need to use a higher percentage of SD starter?
Haha 😁
Yes, you might need to use more starter, ferment longer, or increase the fermentation temperature. I’d suggest using Craig’s sourdough prediction model to determine your starter quantities.